+1
I think two factions is a good number, not too many and not too few, but I'm wondering if your definition of "factions" includes high-ranking positions in crime, or school sports teams?

Joe.exe said:

+1
I think two factions is a good number, not too many and not too few, but I'm wondering if your definition of "factions" includes high-ranking positions in crime, or school sports teams?

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Ouuuh! Good question!

I'd like to think that, when considering factions, any faction affiliation that grants a player a special role tag would be the deciding factor. I mean this as in [Priest], [Lawyer], [Teacher], etc. So for the examples in your question, high-ranking positions in crime would not count as being part of a faction but school sports teams would!

I personally do not believe that sports teams should be considered for this 'limit' it should be two factions, and then you can ALSO join a sports team.. Personally..

But all together -1

DinoNuggys said:

I personally do not believe that sports teams should be considered for this 'limit' it should be two factions, and then you can ALSO join a sports team.. Personally..

But all together -1

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Honestly, I agree with your view on sports! The reason I mentioned sports teams being apart of a faction is already because of the idea that they are a section of players that, once joined, take up a spot in the primary due to the nature of the role. Seeing as how the spot takes a title on the primary, I'd file it in with the other factions that follow the similar path.

I definitely would argue that sports shouldn't fall under that same category, I believe that the process for sports, tryouts and skill towards a sports plugin, is a very different application process than for... well the other factions. But, that being said, the basis of my suggestion really is about pressing the importance of keeping that per person limit for fairness, opportunities, and the things I've mentioned before. There are work arounds behind it all, of course!

One way to work around it would be to remove the faction tag for sports entirely. CRAZY I KNOW BUTTT- hear me out! I saw on another suggestion that people in clubs are differentiated through the use of a tag in their description, I haven't seen that before but it is a thing! If we wanted to move sports into a format where we then made their special role into a similar style of label, we could avoid the issue of [Sports Team] being a tag that is then placed on the primary. With that, one person would still be allowed to join a sports team on a secondary character, while also then using their (now free!) primary spot to apply themselves into a faction!

Another way could be to code the role of sports faction into a secondary slot position, but we've already seen that that's a coding issue that's difficult to get by.

-1

aresdotmp3 said:

CELEXA! This was an amazing read! There's a LOT of information I received on here that I was ignorant to beforehand. A consistent thing I'm seeing is the fact that factions do take history into account. That, I wasn't aware of!

Much less the fact that "factions have the ability to expand or crunch their rosters as they see fit to meet the needs and constraints of the faction." I always believed that a faction had a hard set standing on how many player were allowed to join factions at the time. A hard cap that could not be moved. I was thinking about writing a solution that involved expanding the capsize of players in factions to open more opportunities, but I felt that this solution was an overall bad idea. I think it would help more outreach and opportunities, sure! But I didn't know if adding more slots would then replay history with the idea of, "we need more of this, then let's make more!" (AKA INFLATION, but on an importance or. . . faction based ruling?) I couldn't say what the negatives of that would be, but I feel like there would be downsides to it.

Or well, I guess you could mention the idea that too many people in once faction could be overwhelming, too much work, or more labor than reward. Which is true, and something I thought about and ultimately is a big reason why I never brought this up in the first place.

"I would also personally rather not see a more qualified individual denied from a faction in favour of someone solely because they have less experience." - I can't help but agree with you here, the logic of denying someone solely based on lesser experience, inherently, goes against my ideas of trying to fix an unfair system since it adds another factor that is based on something that is predetermined/unchangeable. It is a hypocritical point I make, from on where you stand on it all. But I can't help and think of the idea that there are people out there who have so much potential and could unlock it all, but just are prevented from doing so because of other applicants on an extra alternate account. Is it a naive thing to assume? Maybe, but I can't get it out o my head.

I believe like it's a valid view to think that "players with outstanding reputations and skill sets should [not] be restricted in favour of those who do not possess these traits." After all, I am a newer player who hasn't seen even the fullest of SRP, but I'd like to think that a players reputation is, obviously, gained from their outreach, their start to a bigger community. So with that again I circle back to my previous thought of potential and allowing a newer person or a person without a faction to be a rising star if just given the chance. I don't think that someone without a great reputation should be automatically favored, but I kinda do wish it wasn't fully taken into consideration. And, of course, skill set is an important feature that ties a person to a positive viewing, but I'd imagine it's hard to view the skillset of a player if the person isn't allowed to show themselves off in the first place.

But this is all just kinda a personal opinion of mine, things I think make sense as a newer player in the ranks.

Nevertheless, I'm so intrigued by your last statement, a solution I would've never though of saying due to my lack of experience or knowledge. "Reducing biases in recruitment strategies," I was thinking about typing it, mentioning it in the suggestions, but I felt nervous to. And for that I can't help but applaud you for bringing it up. I felt like bias in itself is everywhere, but trying to reduce it overall in recruitment is something I think could ultimately help with the process overall. And your latter half of the statement in helping each other out is nothing short of a beautiful ideal that I think is a wonderful addition. But I just wouldn't know how to inherently implement these into a standard rule or system, it's hard for me to think about.

I loved reading and thinking along with your post! If I misinterpreted anything, I'd love to know more if you'd be willing!! ^ ^

Click to expand...

aresdotmp3 said:

CELEXA! This was an amazing read! There's a LOT of information I received on here that I was ignorant to beforehand. A consistent thing I'm seeing is the fact that factions do take history into account. That, I wasn't aware of!

Much less the fact that "factions have the ability to expand or crunch their rosters as they see fit to meet the needs and constraints of the faction." I always believed that a faction had a hard set standing on how many player were allowed to join factions at the time. A hard cap that could not be moved. I was thinking about writing a solution that involved expanding the capsize of players in factions to open more opportunities, but I felt that this solution was an overall bad idea. I think it would help more outreach and opportunities, sure! But I didn't know if adding more slots would then replay history with the idea of, "we need more of this, then let's make more!" (AKA INFLATION, but on an importance or. . . faction based ruling?) I couldn't say what the negatives of that would be, but I feel like there would be downsides to it.

Or well, I guess you could mention the idea that too many people in once faction could be overwhelming, too much work, or more labor than reward. Which is true, and something I thought about and ultimately is a big reason why I never brought this up in the first place.

"I would also personally rather not see a more qualified individual denied from a faction in favour of someone solely because they have less experience." - I can't help but agree with you here, the logic of denying someone solely based on lesser experience, inherently, goes against my ideas of trying to fix an unfair system since it adds another factor that is based on something that is predetermined/unchangeable. It is a hypocritical point I make, from on where you stand on it all. But I can't help and think of the idea that there are people out there who have so much potential and could unlock it all, but just are prevented from doing so because of other applicants on an extra alternate account. Is it a naive thing to assume? Maybe, but I can't get it out o my head.

I believe like it's a valid view to think that "players with outstanding reputations and skill sets should [not] be restricted in favour of those who do not possess these traits." After all, I am a newer player who hasn't seen even the fullest of SRP, but I'd like to think that a players reputation is, obviously, gained from their outreach, their start to a bigger community. So with that again I circle back to my previous thought of potential and allowing a newer person or a person without a faction to be a rising star if just given the chance. I don't think that someone without a great reputation should be automatically favored, but I kinda do wish it wasn't fully taken into consideration. And, of course, skill set is an important feature that ties a person to a positive viewing, but I'd imagine it's hard to view the skillset of a player if the person isn't allowed to show themselves off in the first place.

But this is all just kinda a personal opinion of mine, things I think make sense as a newer player in the ranks.

Nevertheless, I'm so intrigued by your last statement, a solution I would've never though of saying due to my lack of experience or knowledge. "Reducing biases in recruitment strategies," I was thinking about typing it, mentioning it in the suggestions, but I felt nervous to. And for that I can't help but applaud you for bringing it up. I felt like bias in itself is everywhere, but trying to reduce it overall in recruitment is something I think could ultimately help with the process overall. And your latter half of the statement in helping each other out is nothing short of a beautiful ideal that I think is a wonderful addition. But I just wouldn't know how to inherently implement these into a standard rule or system, it's hard for me to think about.

I loved reading and thinking along with your post! If I misinterpreted anything, I'd love to know more if you'd be willing!! ^ ^

Click to expand...

First and foremost, yes, I can and will always call out things as I see them. I see biases, I address them. I do not doubt there have been moments where I benefited from biases, I don't know when or where admittedly but I feel as if it has happened, though that does not make it fair. Systemic disparity is something always worth addressing regardless of how it affects you, or even if it doesn't affect you at all. When addressing systemic issues, I encourage you and everyone who may feel the need to say something to do so, as you are not standing alone when you do so. Yes, its a bit of a serious way to address issues related to a Minecraft roleplay server but the importance of the lesson is valuable beyond just that.

In order, I will respond to what I can.

Factions are able to expand or crunch their rosters, though there is typically a reason or need behind it. For instance, earlier this year the reporter roster expanded from 10 to 20 as 10 was a pretty limiting amount I believe, coupled with some more reasons I am certain I am not privy to. In the inverse, the professor faction has an issue where we have 40 slots but there are not 40 classrooms available to teach in. While our roster currently says 40, I do not believe we are filling it. It would be reasonable to shrink the faction on account of this. I do not know the intricacies of requesting for more slots within a faction though, I just know it is possible and has occurred in my time on SRP. I was in professor at a time where our faction was considered functionally dead and we had too many professors compared to the amount of students attending classes and I can attest that having too many faction members was absolutely hell. I did my best to mitigate and organise where I could, but I will not lie to you, it was draining.

I am inclined to agree that the prevalence of someone having an alt to get a second faction job in itself is unfair, though when it comes down to the application itself, at the end of the day they are still one person being competed against. They do not get a second horse in this faction-specific race because of their alt. I understand how you mean and feel though, that they wouldn't be in the race at all if they were properly limited, which is a fair enough request. Though I believe that overall the mentality of they are still one person applying is going to be what prevails at the end of the day. I think an alternative or fair solution would be for faction leaders to address in their recruitment announcement what percentage or number of faction-less individuals/single account users (combining the two for the sake of ease) are being accepted. For instance, in the event of EMS applications opening, it could be added that 'We have five slots for new doctor trainees opening and three slots for psychiatrist trainees. Of these, two doctor slots and one psychiatrist slot will have a priority placed on them for individuals not currently in any faction." Addressing this issue directly, immediately, and publicly so it is known that such individuals are seen and being prioritised within the faction rather than it being left unsaid. Transparency is the solution to numerous issues like this.

As far as skillsets and upward growth go, I absolutely agree that there is room for improvement here, though I would like to make the case that I began to make myself known before and without a faction to do so. I distinguished myself via roleplay, an eagerness to assist new players, and creating a burgeoning online community for SRP, my server, called Erin's Shrimp Club. The oldest still-lasting footprint I have on SRP which began as a private server with two channels for 12 people has grown to a peak of 186 users all gathered for the sake of social interaction. I would argue that in my earlier months on SRP my ability to socially network and connect with people personally and individually was the leading trait in my favour for building reputation and getting to show myself off. That is to say, putting yourself out there is the best thing you can do for yourself in this regard, faction-less or not. Though I will say having a college tag does come with some minor benefits and I would recommend pursing that as well. People tend to interact with my college characters more than they did as high school, and it also adds to show that you are dedicated to the core focus of the server, School RP, as well as the ability to progress and develop characters, in my humble opinion. I would say I had a noticeable increase in respect or attention from others once I graded my characters up and roleplaying with people in different 'social strata' as it were became easier. This is a lot of yap but I will say the most critical part of this is ensuring that the roleplay you partake in is fun for both sides and that you are doing it for your own sake. Hyperfixating on the underlying issues the server has will only ruin your experience. The rest will come with time.

Methods for reducing biases in any systems are incredibly difficult and hard to implement, though a system of checks and balances always helps. While faction higher-ups often get an input or at least to whisper in the ear of the leader, they often echo the faction leaders own opinions and don't serve as a balancing force. The only solution I have immediately is convoluted but workable, which would be to assign a community or staff member, depending on the scenario, who is knowledgeable on the subject of applications and running a faction, could be drawn from a 'lottery' (at random) to pre-emptively assess the candidates marked or slated to join a faction. The leader would make their list before the candidate is drawn so as to discourage loading their list with people they like or not depending on who the assessor is. Even the threat of accountability is often enough to inspire the desired changes. In a perfect model of this system it would be automated and the leader would have no method to determine who was responsible for the assessment either, providing protection from retaliation for the assessor.

As far as helping people goes, patience and understanding with new players who express a genuine desire to learn or participate in the server is the best thing you can do. I would not make it a dedicated effort though, that is how you burn out and begin to loathe new players. Don't always feel the need to jump in and moderate, or tell them things when they're doing wrong, it is a losing battle, but instead when people ask questions in OOC you are confident in the answer to, give them an answer. Many greenies get overlooked in OOC when they ask questions. This also occurs in the general chats of the RPH and SRP discord servers, where we the player are actually allowed to answer questions, unlike the help channels. I semi-regularly offer to share new players my master doc of commands and introductory material. While SRP has its own intraductory material, many new players tend to shy away from 'official' guides in favour of that of the playerbase, as they are more in-tune with the server on average. That being said, do not feel obligated or compelled to explain systems, bugs, or flaws that you do not feel you have a complete and thorough understanding of. It is okay to not help someone when you are not confident in your answers, it helps you and helps them both to maintain this confidence.

I apologise for the essaylike and nearly soapbox preaching nature of this but when I write feedback and engage in discussion like this, I aim for it to be unviersally applicable to anyone who may read it while also justifying the takes within it and taking it to the absolute maximum of explaining how we the players can influence the server and the community as there is a lot we can do.

Thank you so much for the incredibly thought-provoking and insightful discussion, the time to read my responses, as well as the suggestion to do it in, this has been very pleasurable to engage with.

-1
Multiple faction leads already have measures in place to address this issue. If you're in a faction, your chances of getting into another are lowered to give different players an opportunity and/or fighting chance. You're also only allowed to be in one faction per account, which is fair and how it is for every other player on the server. That's why those who can afford multiple accounts purchase them, opening up more opportunities. Take the time to write a nice application and keep your server reputation up! That's how everybody starts. I've been on SRP for two years now, and I've been in three factions. It really just depends on your availability and how motivated you are as a player. This is a good suggestion, but it's not really needed if you're looking at the bigger picture. Factions look for people to bring something new to the table, so you don't really have to worry about someone already being in a faction being accepted over you. Be confident in yourself.

Neutral???

Now, I might be a little biased since I am one of the people balancing three factions, and I do agree with this to an extent. But as someone who was once a new player and was able to join a faction fairly quickly, I want to share my perspective. :D

I joined SRP in May of 2023, and as a new player, I never thought I’d be accepted into any faction. I wasn’t well-known on the server and definitely wasn’t super knowledgeable. Back then, I honestly still had the mindset that you needed to be on SRP for more than two years to get accepted into anything.

As Yonio mentioned, quota varies, and the stress that puts on someone is definitely something to consider which is also why most don’t exceed past 2-3 factions. Celex also mentioned some following the unspoken rule of two paying factions and one school faction. If someone does try to take on three paying factions, faction leads already take availability into account. If someone can’t keep up, they’ll eventually be removed for inactivity or choose to drop the faction themselves.

This is inevitable and because of this, and the forever curse of real-life responsibilities, spots in factions open up often. Which brings me to this point; faction spots are constantly changing, as others have already mentioned, so they’re not permanently held by one person. I’d likeeeeeee to expand on that a bit.. (While also diving into the new players aspect regarding experience that I seen was mentioned quite a bit here)

In Shrine alone, we’ve had many waves already, and several of them included both new and older players. From what I’ve seen, factions vary a lot when it comes to experience requirements too. Shrine, Reporter, and school employee factions are generally more beginner-friendly in terms of quotas, duties, and I’d personally say applications, while EMS and KPD usually aren’t.. due to their fast paced nature and knowledge of commands. Even with that, I’ve seen people join EMS and KPD without having spent more than a year on SRP, and sometimes it’s even their first faction.

That said, I don’t think this is much of an issue right now solely when it comes to giving new players a chance. People come and go constantly. Take Shrine for example; there are only about three to four of us who’ve been in the faction for more than a year (or who left and later returned). As someone who’s been in the faction since May of 2024, I’ve seen plenty of people come and go; players who’ve been on SRP far longer than me, and others who just joined. With that in mind, I don’t think too many spots are being taken up as of now. That doesn’t mean this hasn’t been a problem in the past, though.

Applications open frequently for almost every faction, especially sports. Because of the constant applications being put up, (Also due to people coming and going whether for inactivity or just to experience a different faction) THIS in my opinion, offers so many chances to expand your SRP knowledge. You get denied? You learn and apply again! I also don’t think experience in SRP is the main factor when it comes to giving new players space in factions as new players aren't new players for long (as they learn and grow). To further dive into this, I’ll use myself and a few friends I’ve fortunately made along the way.

I’ve only been on SRP for about two years. Many people I know have been around much longer, applied to factions, and didn’t get in. For example (sorry don't kill me old man), ImYakov has been on SRP for at least five years and had never been in a faction despite applying to several; School, KPD, Shrine, etc. UNTIL not even a year ago (congrats g). The same goes for many other friends of mine who have been in SRP longer and still got denied. This kind of abolishes the idea that new players are the only ones not given chances, and it also shows that time on the server doesn’t guarantee acceptance. I do agree everyone deserves a chance, new and old.

^^ ALSO experience again.. as I forgot to note! SRP has been combatting this, I believe not too long ago a lot of the sports factions tryouts were harder to get into as a new player because they were attribute based. Now appearing more roleplay based! Same with the change in faction applications, many of the applications have changed to make it more accessible to newer players.

ANYWAYSSSS.. Seeing them finally get into factions (and yes, me still being partially a greenie) is what inspired me to apply again.

^^ From applying to Nurse and Receptionist early on (less than three months into joining SRP and before meeting the two I mentioned) I learned that applications need to be thorough. I was denied, but it pushed me to put more effort into future applications and learn more about SRP. Honestly, I had only visited shrine a handful of times when I applied; I applied shortly after I even learned it existed.

My point here is that most of the time, you can’t really say that people in multiple factions are taking up much space for newer players without also taking other things into account.
Also, at least in Shrine, we don’t really take into account how long you’ve been on the server, ever. What matters far more is the dedication put into the application and, most importantly, ACTIVITY, ACTIVITY, ACTIVITY. (Which again means, multiple factions, not going to be put in front of the ones who have none. Alts don’t guarantee acceptance nor do they bypass quota so leads still choose applicants based on quality and availability.)

BUT okay again yes I’m neutral. because I don’t think this is too big of a problem now. Your 2 faction point I can definitely get behind if this does become a change implemented because yes it would be nice to see new faces in factions and ofc “sir yes sir” to srp staff/lh

BUT I also just think as mentioned (by i think celex, idk its 2am) if you have the time to spare and the money I wouldn’t disqualify someone for applying for 3 factions especially if its something they can keep up with. Because not everyone can do that, either too much on their plate or not active enough. With this, SRP averages up to 100-300 players a day (depending on timezones) and not a lot of these people want to do factions or again have the availability to. OR someone just joins a faction solely to get the adult tag (which a handful of factions don’t necessarily like) Theres people who don’t join factions for this and are in it for the role-play and fun of it which brings in people who have been in the same faction for more than a year and often those same ones, join more than one faction.

I’m neutral in a way of not finding this much of an issue just something primarily up to the staff of SRP.

I hope I said the right things or maybe shed a little more insight onto this. I am not the best at explaining what I mean, so uhm.. Also just thought it would be cool if I responded to this being one of the people, who being fairly new to SRP, already started applying for factions, as I dont want any new people to think they don't have a chance, you do! please apply, its worth every second. PLEASE PLEASE PLEAS- ok. u get it. mb. (I also still fear I have a lot more to learn.) ALSOx3 because my stalker miamorcheeto is here so I wanted to be even more cooler in this yap session.